high rpm mazda fe3 build help
hello i got a 1996 - 2002 kia sportage engine (aka mazda fe3) for my 1993
mazda miata and i was wondering if i could up the rpm limit on a built motor to
around 11000RPM since it is an all cast iron motor i do plan on upgrading the
entire motor with itb intake please let me know if i can use stock cast block if
not head thank you
11 grand? Your engine life will be measured in seconds.
A hot engine that is properly built can go 8,000 rpm, maybe a little higher but your power will probably peak lower.
what if i use a different type of metal?
Since you clearly have no idea of how to build a high RPM engine you need to educate yourself. Read up on lots of Miata websites and on engine builds. It is the valve train that limits RPM. There are other factors but the valve train is the biggest. What is with your fixation on 11 grand?
This is just a guess but I bet the Sportage engine may not have a lot of the good parts that a Miata version would have like a good head and crank.
the only reason is because i wanna build something extraordinary that can fit in my miata using mechanical tuning because i really dont wanna go turbos or superchargers for a streetable track car but i wanna try to somewhat compete with them aswell.
what about the mazda fe3 market?
First come up with at least $20,000 which is what it will take to even come close to your dream engine. You will also need a large sum to make the car into a race car too. A truly competitive Miata could easily run you $50,000 or more to build. Since this is your first build use some common sense and go for a mild build, NOT FORMULA ONE!
If you want 11 grand use a motorcycle engine. Even a Mazda rotary race engine probably won't run that high.
The only Mazda motor that could turn that high and survive was the rotary. Back when I was racing those little motors I had the rev alarm set at 10 grand but at wide open it only took a second for it to hit 11 grand before the shift.
I read an article about a guy who built Ferrari Dino engines that could run 11k + but he was a perfectionist who balanced everything to a gram or less. These were Ferrari engines, not Mazda ;)
A Monster Miata is the answer. Do a Google search for "Monster Miata".
Ferrari...Mazda......Yugo. Physics and metallurgy does not care. As for balancing to a gram or less? Possible but not likely. The natural vibrations in the earth and environment almost prohibit that precision. Besides the oil that clings to rotating parts negates the need to be that critical. 11000 in a small displacement inline like this could be possible but insanely costly and absolutely unnecessary. While the cast iron block can be machined to the tolerances needed to keep everything in line. The cast iron crank will die a spectacular death at around 7000. There are companies that will make you a forged crank for almost anything. something this custom will cost easily 10k. Custom made aluminum rods will take the revs but again this will cost dearly. Aluminum rods dont last long and need to be checked for stretch, twist and fatigue after every event. Custom made pistons are the simplest part and probably the cheapest parts you will buy for this setup. The real problems will lie in the cylinder head, and valve train. Even the best aluminum head for this application will not flow enough air to continue to make any more power above about 8500 rpm maybe not even that. Lightweight valves and custom springs will go 11 grand but the limits of cam lift and duration, as well as port size and length means it will be out of breath long before 11000. Multiple turbos will raise the power band. higher in the rpm range, but it is not at all needed. These small displacement engines need rpm to make power but are most potent between 5000 and 7500 rpm. If you are looking for an extremely high reving and fairly high horsepower setup. Find a later three vane rotary engine. they easily run 10000 rpm and 12k plus is possible. They not only make high revs, they actually love it way up there. And sound incredible. add a turbo setup and you will be making way more power than the Miata can handle. I hope this very long answer was helpful.
Ferrari and other high performance manufacturers have a firm grip on metallurgy and physics which is why they successfully build high RPM engines. One of the biggest factors in ultra high RPM is piston speed. If you were to custom make a short stroke crank and rods for a Mazda engine 11k would be possible if the head/valvetrain were built for it. Gram precision is nothing. I have used scales that weigh your name written on paper in pencil!
Adapting a Haybusa engine might be the best way to make a high RPM Miata. Lighten up the Miata and you could have a real screamer.
I doubt you have access to an aerospace scale. I do however, and it is a waste of time to be that critical. It wont matter once you cover everything in flying oil. The bottom line is that it is very possible. but not practical. I believe that was the op's question. Sorry for jacking this thread for my rant. But I really dislike when someone answers someones question with insulting, snarky and inane comments designed to show the world how superior they are. When in reality, you are showing the opposite. The idea of this forum is to provide answers. If you have none, or don't know. Which you clearly don't. Don't muddy the water by adding your. poorly informed or rude responses.
Chem labs use 1/100,000 gram accuracy scales. You clearly don't even know what a gram is if you think earth vibrations and environment prevent accurate gram level measurements. Pseudo scientific gibberish.
Anything under a gram becomes an unstable and extremely difficult to repeat measurement outside of a laboratory environment. Like A machine shop that actually builds things as opposed to just reading about people who build things. Again sticks and stones may hurt me but you certainly never will.
Are you serious? My kitchen scale measures to a 1/10 of a gram. Unstable? More pseudo scientific malarkey. Must be something you read on the web. Pathetic.
For the ignorant posing as experts - engine balancing to 1/10 gram. http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2013/11/maintaining-your- balance-engine-building-tips-to-reduce-nvh-and-increase-life/
Let's just debunk some of this article written by a .......you guessed it a writer. Mr. Carley is a writer. A writer of technical manuals. Meaning he copies text. He is not nor has ever been anything other than a writer, a recorder of words. For instance centripetal force. Centripetal force does not produce any kind of pounding. It is the force that pulls away from the center of a rotating object. It's the force that keeps water in a bucket when you spin it over your head. this force is linear. Engines encounter Rotating and reciprocal forces. The later produces the pounding in engines. rotational and centripetal force is not the same. Counterweights on the crankshaft that have not been balanced with one another. And have not been balanced to counter the reciprocal weight as well. Will oscillate causing bearing and crankshaft failure. " Most electronic balancing equipment that’s on the market today can easily achieve balances to within 0.1 grams (0.004 oz.), or even less for specialized applications such as turbocharger impellers that spin at extremely high rpms. Another quote "The “old school” tolerances for balancing used to be plus or minus 2 ounces for stock engines (56 grams), half an ounce (0.5 oz. or 14 grams) for street performance and two-tenths ounce (0.2 oz. or 5 to 6 grams) for racing engines. These numbers provided relatively good results with the engines and speeds that were common a couple of decades ago, but they are not even in the ballpark with today’s stock and racing requirements. He is almost right. In the two and a half decades I have been building engines, we have always balanced our High performance engines to within 1.5 grams. Anything more is wasted effort. Simply due to the fact that oil will cling to these parts and affect the balance. So much so that balancing to 1 gram or less is useless. Even on a dry sump motor like they run in NASCAR. They may balance to 1 gram but even for their purpose it's not needed. natural harmonics at the rpm range they run. Up to 9000 rpm kill these engines in 500 miles. Yes when the race is done so is the engine. In drag racing Top fuel and Funnycar. The engines are done after 1 pass. 3.5 Seconds roughly. And as for Pro stock. 1 event if the teams are lucky. Yesterdays engines were theoretically balanced. Meaning if all the parts were made similarly and heavy enough they would work themselves out. They were not balanced by any stretch of the imagination. As the article quotes "On some of Ford’s newer V6 engines, the factory balance is within 0.16 oz.-in. (4.5 grams) It has gotten marginally better since this article was written in 2013. The point is the finest racing engines made are not balanced to under 1 gram. Let the builders build. You stick to reading magazines. And while you are at it. Please read carefully if you intend to cite a reference to prove your point. It should not invalidate it. I don't know what you do for a living, but I hope you are better at it than you are at engine building. Or reading about engine building. Now I am done with you, You are a smarty alecky wannabe, who has zero background in the topics you comment on. spews disinformation, and insults to validate yourself. My lovely wife knows more about cars than you do.
"The natural vibrations in the earth and environment almost prohibit that precision." I must have missed that day in physics. Do people actually buy that gibberish? LOL
If you want 11k red line, get a rotary.
That's what I tried to say. But it went off on some wild tangent on engine balancing, my old RX7 would turn 11000 anytime I want it too, what more could you ask for a high rev engine than would do it day after day after day, and no it wasn't the engine that made stop driving it, it was the guy that ran the red light and literally took the nose off my car and to top it off he wasn't insured.
Exactly. A rotary would be perfect for the miata cause it's light and easily accessible. Everyone says they're unreliable, which to a certain level is true (like any motor, but hell, my friend takes his rx8 off road and it's at 150k on 1 motor). Rotary is really the safest way to go since you want a high revving set up. Only rotary will say thank you each time you red line it. Plus if it breaks it's the easiest motor to work on.
Well I would exactly say easy to work on, I have never used that much Vaseline to hold things in place during reassembly, or having to carefully file side seals to fit within 1mm tolerance, that's a real tricky part, but all in all a fun engine to overhaul, only thing I did do that wasn't recommended is I bumped up the oil injector pump too it's fullest flow on all my engines that I ran, so it did make checking the oil critical but worth a little more protection, after I did that I quit damaging side housings. FUN FUN FUN
Oh, another incentive to go rotary. They sound like legit race cars. Just go listen to the Mazda furai. And they spit flame so easy (for those who are a little more childish like me)
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